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| Re: Rick in the news again. [message #54756] |
Mon, 20 June 2005 09:47  |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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dumb dicussion about peoples motivations -
>> usually a country operates driven by a mixture of greed,
>> egoism, a little dose of humanism and morality (preferably when it
>> happens to be in sync with other interests) and power.
>> every country, every institution is like that, its
>> only the mixture that varies a bit - discussions about
>> that lead nowhere (at best they lead to kindergarden stereotypes
>> such as the impressively well researched ones you had to offer -
>> greedy selifish europe or, equally stupid, the oh so evil USA, all that
BS
>> thats only
>> there because some people like to have everything in easy categories)
>>
>>
>> its only different this time because mr.bush felt like
>> trying a new concept, throwing away the idea of "be like
>> you want your neighbour to be" and a set or rules and coming
>> up with the - rather explosive - idea of preemptive strikes.
>>
>> in the end, we all want the same thing. so coming up with
>> this new concept is fair enough. but it naturally leads to
>> the basic argument about deescalation versus brute force.
>> the whole "ah theyre just selfish cowards" blabla is
>> just a nice excuse so that one doesnt have to face this
>> discussion, cause as we all well know, those countries
>> that supposedly are so selfish as to not join the saint
>> that is the USA, for some reason did join and support them
>> in the past. heck, they might even support them in other causes
>> (my favourite example being long forgotten afghanistan, where
>> my country i.e. is still helping out on every corner, despite
>> the fact that were led by mr. selfish evil stefan schroeder, the
>> half socialist bastard),
>> which somehow is quite illogical, dont you think?
>>
>> anyway, that discussion leads nowhere, its just a nebula bomb
>> thrown by supporters of the preemptive strike idea that
>> fear the actual comparison of concepts.
>>
>> just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
>> (who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
>> for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny
>> ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the
>> different concepts of brute force versus deescalation.
>> brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a
>> conflict ending concept. deescalation had about 5 years
>> (you know, until that religious dumbass shot rabin).
>> which concept came closer to actual peace? you tell me.
>>
>> im much more interested in that basic discussion of concepts
>> than in dealing stereotype bullshit like the "selfish
>> socialist europe" or the equally stupid speculation about
>> whether mr. bush's motivation is a selfish one or a selfless act
>> (i would guess its a typical case of a mixture).
>>
>> im too old for that BS. and you should be too. honestly.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >Well, I've got little time here so I'm going to try to finish this in
a
>> >brief a post as possible.
>> >
>> >To sum up the previous post.......after 1976, when electricity and decent
>> >roads were brought into this area, it became an increasingly
>international
>> >community of people and a big experiment in socialism. The same problems
>> >that inevitably doom socialism to failure, were very evident and it was
>> a
>> >real eye opener to those among us who thouight we could transcend human
>> >nature for the *good of the group*. Also the permissiveness and
>> >non-judgmentalism that was part of this experiment (we call it political
>> >correctness now) caused a lot of problems. One really funny thing
>happened
>> >early on. The Indians who were all part of the big extended family that
>> ws
>> >running this place were all laughing like crazy one night at a get
>together
>> >they were having. I could understand their dialect and they had known
me
>> for
>> >years. wht they were laughing about was the stereotypes they were
>noticing.
>> >
>> >The French tourists distrusted the Germans. The Italians and the French
>> >seemed to be in some sort of competition all the time with each other.
>The
>> >Quebecois Canadians pretty much hated the French and vice versa. The
>Germans
>> >and the Americans got along pretty well, though no one really wanted
to
>> >admit liking the Americans much when Americans weren't around. The
>Americans
>> >seemed to have very strange reltionships with the Europeans and other
>> >Americans. Some of the Americans wanted to be liked by the Europeans,
>lots
>> >of the Americans wanted everyone to think they were Californians. The
>> >Scandinavians were a bit aloof from the rest of the Europeans and
>Americans.
>> >The Texans weren't really considered to be Americans by the Europeans
or
>> the
>> >Mexicans and got along better with the Mexicans than with anyone else
>there.
>> >There were lots of other things like this that they were noticing. The
>> >really telling thing about it all was that every nationality eventually
>> >ended up at their own posada (sort of like an outdoor hotel on the
>beach).
>> >There was the German, French, Spanish, Swiss, American......etc. posada.
>> >Just like all of these people who were willing to pay lip service to
the
>> >idea of one big happy worle, were totally unable to practice this and
>their
>> >preconceptions and stereotypes where easy to recognize by a group of
>people
>> >who were totally unfamiliar with world history and politics............so
>> >they saw the stereotypic BS that you ascribe to me. Once I heard this,
I
>> >started paying attention to it and there is a lot more ugly stuff I could
>> >say about it, but it would do no good and despite your anger at me, I
am
>> >basing my opinions on real experience, not theories of how things ought
>> to
>> >be.
>> >
>> >During the 70's and 80's this was a good jumping off place for travelling
>> >further down into central and south america. It was pretty awful down
>there
>> >because there was a lot of killing going on, boith over politics and
>drugs
>> >(which were pretty much the same). The Hollywood movies like Salvador
>only
>> >show one side of this *freedom fighter* picture. It was awful, but I
saw
>> >some stuff down there that was done by Cuban agents and their
>bloodthirsty
>> >guerilla allies that was as bad as anything you can possibly imagine
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| Re: Rick in the news again. [message #54775 is a reply to message #54756] |
Mon, 20 June 2005 18:27  |
Deej [3]
Messages: 181
Registered: June 2005
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Senior Member |
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what they want to do. This whole war was about
>> >> > >> >destabilizing
>> >> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and make
>> >billions
>> >> > for
>> >> > >> >> >George's
>> >> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to bankrupt
the
>> US
>> >> > the
>> >> > >> >same
>> >> > >> >> >> way
>> >> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan as
>payback
>> >> > for
>> >> > >> >> >Israeli/US
>> >> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending
him
>> or
>> >> his
>> >> > >> >agenda
>> >> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly - and
>our
>> >> > >so-called
>> >> > >> >> >friends
>> >> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt
the
>> US
>> >> > >> >government
>> >> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money
as
>> >> possible
>> >> > >> to
>> >> > >> >> >their
>> >> > >> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects and
>military
>> >> > >> >contracts,
>> >> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what little
>> >social
>> >> > >> >> >safety-net
>> >> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people
>> >directly
>> >> > >with
>> >> > >> >> high
>> >> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the US back
>> to
>> >the
>> >> > >early
>> >> > >> >> >1900s
>> >> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the conservative
>> >> ideology)
>> >> > >> is
>> >> > >> >> to
>> >> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the public
>simply
>> >> > >can't
>> >> > >> >> >afford
>> >> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying to
>> >bankrupt
>> >> > the
>> >> > >> US
>> >> > >> >> >government
>> >> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends, and
he's
>> >> doing
>> >> > >> a
>> >> > >> >great
>> >> > >> >> >> >job.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives
>don't
>> >> seem
>> >> > >> to
>> >> > >> >> >consider.
>> >> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of wealth
>> >> through
>> >> > >> >> >taxation,
>> >> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses and
>> >nobodies
>> >> > >wealth
>> >> > >> >> is
>> >> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks
the
>> >> economy.
>> >> > >> >> Why?
>> >> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't spend
>100%
>> >of
>> >> > >every
>> >> > >> >> >dollar
>> >> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments generally
>spend
>> >> > >every
>> >> > >> >> red
>> >> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for his
>rich
>> >> > >friends,
>> >> > >> >> >the
>> >> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people save
>> and
>> >> > >> >government
>> >> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting
of
>> >> America.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >As a Canadian, I'm extremely worried about the direction
>that
>> >> the
>> >> > >> US
>> >> > >> >> is
>> >> > >> >> >> heading
>> >> > >> >> >> >in. Bush and the terrorists seem to have the same agenda.
>> >> There's
>> >> > >> no
>> >> > >> >> >success
>> >> > >> >> >> >for Canada if the US falls apart. I can't even tell you
>how
>> >> > >> >heartbroken
>> >> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election. I've
>> >> always
>> >> > >> >> >believed
>> >> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these are
>> very
>> >> > >> >worrisome
>> >> > >> >> >> >times.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by
this
>> >> > >> >senselessness
>> >> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone else.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >All the best,
>> >> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >> > >> >> >> >>Kim,
>> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I do
>not,
>> >> > >however,
>> >> > >> >> >agree
>> >> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have done
no
>> >good
>> >> > at
>> >> > >> all
>> >> > >> >> >(my
>> >> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) and despite the glee that those opposed
>> to
>> >> > the
>> >> > >> war
>> >> > >> >> >feel
>> >> > >> >> >> >>due to there having been no WMD's found, the delay could
>> have
>> >> > >easily
>> >> > >> >> >> >>provided the time for disposing of them across the border
>> in
>> >> Syria
>> >> > >> or
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