Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Liquide Mix for PC
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76304 is a reply to message #76289] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 09:20   |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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rice, or is that an extender card
> that you can buy separately?
>
> Neil
>
>
> "DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote:
>>Home card has a 2 x ADAT I/O daughterboard so add X16 ADAT I/O.
>>
>>Deej
>>
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:4595c47c$1@linux...
>>>
>>> OK, now as promised I'll continue where I left off: Clarifying
>>> their product nomenclatures & i/o options...
>>>
>>> First of all, the question I had was: "Is it Creamware, is it
>>> Scope, or is it Pulsar?" These guys have a marketing/branding
>>> nightmare going on, really. I guess I started calling it
>>> Pulsar, because two of the cards bear (or BORE) that name. No
>>> one on the Pulsar forum corrected me or was confused by this,
>>> so I guess the terms are more or less swappable. Confusing, but
>>> swappable.
>>>
>>> So you basically have three sets of choices to make:
>>>
>>> 1.) Which card you want (which basically means ONLY "how much
>>> DSP power do you want?", because all the cards interface the
>>> same way & do the same things).
>>> 2.) Which i/o options you want with the card you chose, IF you
>>> chose something besides the entry-level card? (the Project card
>>> & the Professional Card can take any of the three i/o
>>> options- I'll fill in more in this regard shortly)
>>> 3.) Which software pack do you want included with the card, IF
>>> you bought either the Project or Pro Cards? Mix & Master, or
>>> Synths & Samplers? (While there is currently a special wherein
>>> if you buy the big card you get both packs included, I don't
>>> know how long this will going on - normally this a choice
>>> between one & the other on these two cards, as I understand it.
>>>
>>> Now, going into further detail for each of the three sets of
>>> choices metioned above:
>>>
>>> 1.) Which card do you want?
>>> a.) "Home" Card? (~$450, and has 3 DSP chips)
>>> b.) "Project" Card ($~750, and has 6 DSP chips)
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76305 is a reply to message #76304] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 08:35 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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>>> c.) "Professional" card (~$1,250 and has 14 DSP chips)
>>>
>>> For the sake of less confusion, ignore the names LunaII, Pulsar
>>> II, and PowerPulsar that also show up on their websites... they
>>> are NOT different cards or card options! Those are simply the
>>> FORMER names of the Home, Project, and Professional cards, in
>>> that order (think Black Paris / Blue Paris lol).
>>>
>>> 2.) Which i/o setup do you want?
>>>
>>> If you get the "Home" Card, there's only one i/o setup... it
>>> says "up to 12" i/o's but I don't know where they get that -
>>> maybe that's if you add on an extender card, but from what I
>>> can tell it's just a stereo analog i/o & a stereo digital i/o &
>>> a MIDI i/o on that card.
>>>
>>> If you get either the {Project, or the Pro card, THEN you have
>>> to choose between the following i/o options
>>>
>>> a.) "Classic i/o"
>>> b.) "Plus i/o"
>>> c.) "Z-link i/o"
>>>
>>> Here's a link that gives you details on the differences between
>>> them (scroll down to the bottom half of that page):
>>>
>>> http://www.infinitevortex.com/creamware/scope-cards/project/
>>>
>>> The i/o options are the same for the Project & Pro cards
>>>
>>> NOW... BE WARNED: the "Classic" & "Plus" i/o's can be used with
>>> hardware you (most likely) already have - it's straight-ahead
>>> analog & digiblah inzies & outsies, but the "Z-Link" has to
>>> have another piece of their hardware in order to make full use
>>> of the 28 total i/o's... the "Z-Link" i/o set is designed to
>>> work with one of THESE:
>>>
>>> http://www.infinitevortex.com/creamware/io/a16-ultra/
>>>
>>>
>>> They have more hardware like sync plates to clock externally
>>> through, and DSP booster cards with no i/o's, but those are the
>>> basic/foundation platforms & options I've listed above.
>>>
>>> To sum it all up:
>>> If you're going with just one card, my advice would be don't
>>> even fucking bother with the "Home" card - if you want to throw
>>> away 450 bucks, just send it to me and at least I'll send you a
>>> birthday & christmas card in return. In my experience with the
>>> 6-DSP Project card, the 3-DSP Home card won't do much at all
>>> for you - even at the lower sample rates... you MIGHT be able
>>> to sum a few channels & insert a couple of plugins, but that
>>> would be about the limit - ALSO, again if you're going with
&g
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76308 is a reply to message #76304] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 09:37 |
Tony Benson
Messages: 453
Registered: June 2006
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Senior Member |
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>> to late to the blog revolution and started using an incredible piece of
>> open
>> source software known as wordpress.
>>
>> youchill.com is where I will post bit by bit, for better or for worse,
>> every
>> song I have ever recorded, along with some details. I decided to do this
>> after speaking with one of my oldest friends one night, and agreeing that,
>> even though it is a terrible cliche, that music literally saved our lives
>> :-)
>>
>> I don't really have any new music per se as all i do now is noodle around
>> on the piano, while computers crash, hard drives die, and plugins get
>> de-authorized
>> under mysterious circumstances. Everything I will post is circa 99 or
>> earlier.
>>
>> I guess most of what I record could be considered alternative music,
>> because
>> I can't sing and I can't play. haha But I do think that there are bits
>> and pieces of obviously recognizable influences.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>
>Saddam Hussein goes to hell and the devil is waiting.
He looks at Saddam and says, You have the choice of 3 doors and you
MUST choose one of the doors, the door you choose will be your
fate for all eternity!"
Saddam nods and they proceed to the first door, open it and there is
Adolf Hitler diving into a pool almost drowning, then resurfacing
then diving back in again.
Saddam looks and shakes his head " I cant swim " he says.
The devil shrugs and they proceed to the next door and there is Arafat
hitting a rock with a pick over and over. Mr. Hussein looks and shakes
his head again " I have this bad shoulder and can’t do heavy work "
The Devil shrugs and they proceed to the final door. The devil opens
it and there is Bill Clinton laying on a table with Monica Lewinsky
on top of him doing what she does best.
Saddam’s beady, yet strangely flinty eyes light up and go wide and
he says " hell yes, that’s the one for me!"
The devil smirks and says " Miss Lewinsky You Are Free To Go!"As much as this guy was to be despised, the look on his face when he saw the
noose was wrenching and despite myself, I felt pity.
"DC" <dc@saddaminhell.com> wrote in message news:4595fb0a$1@linux...
>
> The New York Times goes into mourning....I did too. Then I remembered.
"DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote:
>As much as this guy was to be despised, the look on his face when he saw
the
>noose was wrenching and despite myself, I felt pity.
>
>
>"DC" <dc@saddaminhell.com> wrote in message news:4595fb0a$1@linux...
>>
>> The New York Times goes into mourning....
>
>Me too.
"DC" <dc@saddaminhell.com> wrote in message news:4596aa5a$1@linux...
>
> I did too. Then I remembered.
>
>
>
> "DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote:
>>As much as this guy was to be despised, the look on his face when he saw
> the
>>noose was wrenching and despite myself, I felt pity.
>>
>>
>>"DC" <Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76309 is a reply to message #76304] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 10:30 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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to:dc@saddaminhell.com" target="_blank">dc@saddaminhell.com> wrote in message news:4595fb0a$1@linux...
>>>
>>> The New York Times goes into mourning....
>>
>>
>Happy geekyear indeed! Native DAWs rock, with a sufficiently fast system.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
rick wrote:
> well then, happy geekyear to you sir. ain't nuthin' better than
> smooth sailing and not a cloud in sight.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 03:13:28 -0500, "Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> I finally have got a few things running in this new Cubase setup.
>> AMD 4800+. Here is a little rambling about it's power.
>>
>> Check this out!
>>
>> I have 12 tracks playing 12 different instruments in Cubase through Kontakt. All native.
>> Basses, violins, pianos, harps, bassoons, pads, guitars you name it. Using at peak points
>> 45 voices. CPU peaks at 20%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> 90 voices I am assuming 40%. 180 voices? 80%? This may be the limit give or take.
>>
>> Not gonna be a problem with anything anymore. I am in heaven and I can't even hear a note.
>> Meters are jumping around on all parts but no worries in the CPU department.
>> I'm thinking that extra gig of Ram (3 gig total) might just be the final final on this rig.
>> I also know that I have another 10 synths I can add from Creamware to bolster
>> this with virtually no hit to the CPU but some to RAM of course. Nutz I'm telling ya, just nutz!
>>
>> Sounds will never be the problem again. Power will never be an issue. Granted Kontakt
>> has onboard native effects that will suck a little more juice. Oh, so I can only get 150 voices.
>> Jeez, before I was struggling along with 48 total using two Roland samplers.
>> ____________________________________________________________ __
>> Okay I changed a few things and got 80 voices and 16 tracks running. The CPU peaked at 22%.
>> Obviously voice numbers are less demanding as compared to sample size and
>> processing of actual synth engines. These are all samples with nothing extra happening.
>>
>> I'll be sleeping well tonight. Dreaming about the next synths to load in.
>> T. as in B.
>>
>>
>> I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>> http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>What mobo you using? I've got a 4800 sitting here that I haven't used yet
(currently using a 4400) Maybe I'll swap this weekend.
;o)
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:4596b056@linux...
>
> Happy geekyear indeed! Native DAWs rock, with a sufficiently fast system.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>
> rick wrote:
>> well then, happy geekyear to you sir. ain't nuthin' better than
>> smooth sailing and not a cloud in sight.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 03:13:28 -0500, "Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I finally have got a few things running in this new Cubase setup.
>>> AMD 4800+. Here is a little rambling about it's power.
>>>
>>> Check th
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76310 is a reply to message #76308] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 10:04 |
Tony Benson
Messages: 453
Registered: June 2006
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Senior Member |
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is out!
>>>
>>> I have 12 tracks playing 12 different instruments in Cubase through
>>> Kontakt. All native.
>>> Basses, violins, pianos, harps, bassoons, pads, guitars you name it.
>>> Using at peak points
>>> 45 voices. CPU peaks at
>>> 20%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>> 90 voices I am assuming 40%. 180 voices? 80%? This may be the limit
>>> give or take.
>>>
>>> Not gonna be a problem with anything anymore. I am in heaven and I
>>> can't even hear a note.
>>> Meters are jumping around on all parts but no worries in the CPU
>>> department.
>>> I'm thinking that extra gig of Ram (3 gig total) might just be the final
>>> final on this rig.
>>> I also know that I have another 10 synths I can add from Creamware to
>>> bolster
>>> this with virtually no hit to the CPU but some to RAM of course. Nutz
>>> I'm telling ya, just nutz!
>>>
>>> Sounds will never be the problem again. Power will never be an issue.
>>> Granted Kontakt
>>> has onboard native effects that will suck a little more juice. Oh, so I
>>> can only get 150 voices.
>>> Jeez, before I was struggling along with 48 total using two Roland
>>> samplers.
>>> ____________________________________________________________ __
>>> Okay I changed a few things and got 80 voices and 16 tracks running.
>>> The CPU peaked at 22%.
>>> Obviously voice numbers are less demanding as compared to sample size
>>> and
>>> processing of actual synth engines. These are all samples with nothing
>>> extra happening.
>>>
>>> I'll be sleeping well tonight. Dreaming about the next synths to load
>>> in.
>>> T. as in B.
>>>
>>>
>>> I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>>> http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01C72C09.8CEB30E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I previously posted.............
>Either you have to work in XTC mode=20
which negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you =
sum=20
in Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, or you work "in series" =
wherein <
this should read .......
Either you have to work in XTC mode=20
which negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you =
sum=20
in Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, so you work "in series" =
wherein .yadda yadda.......
Deej
"DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote in message news:4596a69a@linux...
> Neil,
>=20
> Great post. The evolution of the cards/names is definitely confusing. =
Now=20
> here are some more thoughts for Parisites.
>=20
> Seems all proprietary DSP cards have their advantages and drawbacks. =
Look at=20
> the limitations of Pro Tools for instance as far as being able to run =
lots=20
> of plugins. You have to buy lot$ of extra DSP hardware so in that =
respect,=20
> there are similarities to Scope and needing the higher DSP processor =
counts.=20
> It's pretty much a concensus of opinion over on the PlanetZ forum that =
30=20
> DSP's (two "Pro cards") are necessary for serious mixing. The same =
thing=20
> with the Soundscape system.
>=20
> Also, before I diss the Scope platform as far as plugins go, I'm going =
to=20
> need to get spend some time with the third party offerings.. As with =
PT and=20
> Soundscape, there are "lots" of third party plugins for this platform. =
I've=20
> got the demos DL'ed but haven't tried them yet. IMHO, the stock =
plugins for=20
> this platform are as good or better than the stock EDS plugins that =
came=20
> with the Paris system with some being "much" better (have you tried =
the=20
> deesser?), and I'll wager that like the Skunkworks subsequent =
offerings that=20
> were DSP based, the third party plugs for this program may be =
excellent=20
> stuff..........but like Paris, and as you have already pointed out, =
the DSP=20
> resources are rather limited on the Home and Project cards
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76311 is a reply to message #76310] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 11:08 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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so going =
Pro=20
> would be the ticket if this was going to be a large mixdown platform..
>=20
> I do agree with you that the implementation of this platform as =
relates to=20
> working in a native audio app sorta sucks, but you can look at it =
either as=20
> a step backwards or as being familiar. Either you have to work in XTC =
mode=20
> which negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you =
sum=20
> in Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, or you work "in series" =
wherein=20
> with the VST plugins are required to be first in the series, similar =
to the=20
> Paris native>EDS "in series" scenario (the familiar).
>=20
> Another killer way to use this platform is as a *real time* FX =
processor=20
> interfacing with the Paris ADAT and S/Pdif I/O on the Paris inserts =
and=20
> auxes. The Vinco doesn't use an inordinate amount of DSP and it's got =
two=20
> modes. Again as you pointed out, it's an 1176 ringer, but it also does =
a=20
> nice opto. I will be looking at some of the third party plugins as =
well=20
> because I have heard some comparisons that were posted of the DAS EQ's =
and=20
> they were damned nice. The API sounded killer and the Pultec gave a =
good=20
> account of itself vs the UAD-1 Pultec. Using these as "real time" =
plugins on=20
> Paris auxes/inserts may be similar to having a "zero audible latency" =
UAD-1=20
> scenario.
>=20
> You and I had different expectations for this platform and mine have =
been=20
> met in spades. The way I use Scope works wonders for my particular =
Paris=20
> summing madness and it is the most stable and flexible native audio =
platform=20
> I've ever encountered. I was going more for I/O connectivity on a =
stable=20
> platform and the incredible (and to me, fast & intuitive) routing =
options=20
> than the plugins. the plugins and synths were icing on the cake for =
me. I=20
> really never expected to give up my UAD cards but if the 3rd party =
plugins=20
> are to my liking and I get sick of mixing on three platforms, I just =
might..=20
> In the meantime, the stability and the routing were the major ticket =
IMO.=20
> The routing has saved me lots of $$$ because it allows the Scope =
platform to=20
> be used as a digital patchbay, enhancing what I already have here that =
I was=20
> getting ready to expand.. These two things were worth the price of=20
> admission.
>=20
> Cheers,
> ;o)
>=20
> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:45952a49$1@linux...
>>
>> Yeah, this looks like the same thing as their "Mix & Master
>> Pack", which I also have... this is another problem with the
>> Creamware stuff - they have a couple of different names for
>> every product, and it's confusing (can't help their marketing
>> efforts any, either); it's like they decided to rename their
>> entire product line, but never dropped the old names, either.
>>
>> Anyway, yes, to me this looks like the exact same thing as what
>> they now call their Mix & Master Pack, and IMO, YMMV, etc, some
>> of the FX are useful, and some of 'em are total crap... or more
>> accurately, some are useful, some are crap, some don't seem to
>> do much of anything at all and so you have to wonder: "why
>> bother even writing this plugin?". I noticed in one of the
>> Pulsar forum threads the other day where someone mentioned that
>> you have to get the Vinco compressor in the red before it does
>> anything. I didn't find that to be the case, but then I haven't
>> tried it on low-level signals (and maybe they were
>> exaggerating a bit).
>>
>> Also, Aaron, what they mention on that page you liked to (down
>> at the bottom of the page) with regard to the list
>> of "plugins", well some of 'em ain't exactly plugins!. I'll
>> paste that list in & run through it in the order they mention
>> the items (my comments in parenthesis below):
>>
>>
>> *MasterVerb Pro (a pretty nice-sounding reverb, IMO. Not raving
>> about it, necessarily, but it sucketh not).
>>
>> *Optimaster (this is something like Izotope's Ozone... a Multi-
>> EFX mastering app. It's got a Compressor, a limiter, expander,
>> all multi-band (3 bands). It's not as versatile as Ozone, and
>> doesn't have a stereo spread section (or a reverb, but that
>> would be your "MasterVerb", above), but it sounds pretty good,
>> I think - very smooth. The limiter is either totally incapable
>> of brickwaling, or I haven't figured out how to get it there,
>> because I've had to adjust the master level down to avoid overs
>> even when using this. It has a bunch of presets (not all of the
>> plugins do), some of which seem pretty useful as starting
>> points. I wouldn't want to run a Mastering house using this
>> application, so their choice of name may be stretching things a
>> bit, but if you want to strap something nice & smooth & clear-
>> sounding/uncolored across your Pulsar mixer's 2-buss, then this
>> would be the one to use).
>>
>> *Vinco Vintage Compressor (a one-trick pony dead-on (at least
>> as far as I can tell from what I've run through it so far)
>> emulation of an 1176, but cleaner - maybe a little
>> less "attitude". I've never found the '76's to be all that
>> useful, personally, but for those who lust after them, his
>> one's not a bad clone at all.
>>
>> *PSY-Q (Totally fucki
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76313 is a reply to message #76310] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 10:25 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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gt;> out of your signal & barfing up something almost vaguely
>> resembling music. A waste of code, IMO). Want a killer stereo
>> spread modifier? Get the one that comes in Ozone instead. It's
>> the only good one I've heard since the Bedini B.A.S.E.
>>
>>
>> *Surroundmixer STM-48s
>> *Production Mixer STM-2448
>> *Inline Mixer STM-1632
>> (OK, absolutely NONE of these are really plugins... they're
>> MIXERS, one of which you have to have in your routing window &
>> be able to route signals through it in order to actually MIX -
>> or sum - anything!
>> See, the routing window works something like this... you drop
>> in a module that represents where your signal is coming from,
>> then you drop in a mixer module - you pick the smallest mixer
>> you really need, because the bigger the mixer, the more DSP
>> power it takes - then you drop in a module that represents
>> where you want your signal to go FROM the mixer, and in a very
>> small nutshell, that's it. The different modules get connected
>> very much like how you do it in Paris' virtual patchbay.
>>
>> The part about "where your signal is coming from" could mean a
>> hardware input (ADAT/Analog/SPDIF/AES) or it could mean a
>> software/ASIO input (like for example if you were running
>> Cubase or Nuendo or whatnot & you had a 36-channel mix going on
>> & you wanted to run each channel individually through the
>> Pulsar DSP mixer, you'd drop in an "ASIO Source" module, do a
>> couple other things that I don't want to get into right now,
>> and connect tha module to the mixer in your routing window...
>> now if it's a 32-channel mix you couldn't use the "1632" mixer
>> mentioned above, because you'd be four channels short, so you'd
>> have to select the 48-channel mixer to get all those channels
>> individually. The part about "where you want your signal to go
>> to FROM the mixer" is similar... do you want it to go to analog
>> outs? Straight to somewhere on the hard disk? Back into your
>> native app on 2 new tracks so you can keep the mixes in the
>> same project? A combination of Analog outs for monitoring
>> purposes, lightpipe outs to your Alesis Masterlink, and also
>> straight to the hard disk for a backup copy, all at once? You
>> can do this, too.
>>
>> *MasterVerb Classic (seems to me like the same basic algo's as
>> the MasterVerb, but without as much control and a different
>> GUI - haven't messed with it enough to be able to tell if it
>> sounds much different or not)
>>
>> *Compressor, Limiter, Gate, Expander, (plain-vanilla dynamics
>> plugs without any form of coloration or attitude whatsover...
>> great if that's what you want, *YAWN* if it's not.)
>>
>> *Parametric EQ, 4-Pole, HighCut Filter, LowCut Filter,
>> (OK, I THOUGHT I was going to go in the order they mentioned
>> it, but these needed to be grouped together... these are all
>> the same basic EQ plugin, and the only reason I think they make
>> them "separate" plugins is to give you the choice to conserve
>> DSP if you only need one band (hi cut or lo cut, for example) -
>> again, if there was a way to get more plain than plain
>> vanilla... how about a soy-based vanilla? - then that would be
>> the way to describe these plugins. Looking for a nice phat Neve-
>> ish, phasey, smeary, analog EQ... y'aint gonna find it here,
>> al. Phase-linear - I'm guessing - to the point of: "Is it even
>> ON?" is the game here. Clean? Yep. Musical? Nope.
>>
>> *Filter, Chorus, 4-Tap, Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Delay, Dual
>> Delay, AutoPan, AutoWah, Distortion, Dither/Shaper, Early
>> Reflector, Harmonic Chorus/Flanger, Multitap Delay, Overdrive,
>> Pitch Shifter, Resonator, RingModulator, Tremolo
>>
>> I haven't used ANY of the delays yet, but most of the
>> modulation EFX all appear to be cut from the same mold, in the
>> manner of the different EQ plugs - most of the mod EFX are
>> pretty funky, and something I wouldn't use, so I can't really
>> comment much on these. The dither has quite a few settings,
>> some of which sound OK, and some of which sound like crap...
>> there's about ninetymillion dither/noise-shaping algos out
>> there now, so I'm not even sure what some of the presets
>> represent! Anyway, to sum it all up, this batch above
>> represents really about 4 total plugin's (Delay, Modulation,
>> Dither, and Distortion) that happen to be broken up into a
>> number of sub-applets for probably both convenience and
>> conservation of DSP... can't blame 'em for that.
>>
>> This above3 lsit of stuff, as far as I can tell (unless I'm
>> missing something somewhere) is identical to what you'd get if
>> you select their Mix & Master pack as the software option
>> if you order either the "Home" card ($450-ish with 3 DSP chips)
>> or the "Project" card ($750-ish with 6 DSP chips)... Thad got a
>> special they have for the "Professional" card ($1,250-ish with
>> 14 DSP chps) wherein if you buy that card you get both the Mix
>> & Master pack PLUS the Synths & Samplers pack (which I know
>> nothing about since I don't have that software bundle).
>>
>>
>> Argh... tired of typing now - will fill you in on the confusing
>> differences between the names of the cards (both new AND old/yet
>> continuing to be referenced in their own literature), and the
>> different i/o options you have to pick from later on.
>>
>>
>> Neil=20
>=20
>
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76316 is a reply to message #76309] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 11:26 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
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a good <BR>> account of itself vs =
the=20
UAD-1 Pultec. Using these as "real time" plugins on <BR>> Paris =
auxes/inserts=20
may be similar to having a "zero audible latency" UAD-1 <BR>>=20
scenario.<BR>> <BR>> You and I had different expectations for this =
platform and mine have been <BR>> met in spades. The way I use Scope =
works=20
wonders for my particular Paris <BR>> summing madness and it is the =
most=20
stable and flexible native audio platform <BR>> I've ever =
encountered. I was=20
going more for I/O connectivity on a stable <BR>> platform and the =
incredible=20
(and to me, fast & intuitive) routing options <BR>> than the =
plugins. the=20
plugins and synths were icing on the cake for me. I <BR>> really =
never=20
expected to give up my UAD cards but if the 3rd party plugins <BR>> =
are to my=20
liking and I get sick of mixing on three platforms, I just might.. =
<BR>> In=20
the meantime, the stability and the routing were the major ticket IMO. =
<BR>>=20
The routing has saved me lots of $$$ because it allows the Scope =
platform to=20
<BR>> be used as a digital patchbay, enhancing what I already have =
here that=20
I was <BR>> getting ready to expand.. These two things were worth the =
price=20
of <BR>> admission.<BR>> <BR>> Cheers,<BR>> ;o)<BR>> =
<BR>>=20
"Neil" <</FONT><A href=3D"mailto:OIUOIU@OIU.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>OIUOIU@OIU.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> wrote =
in message=20
</FONT><A href=3D"news:45952a49$1@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:45952a49$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>...<BR>>><BR>>> Yeah, this looks like the same =
thing as their=20
"Mix & Master<BR>>> Pack", which I also have... this is =
another=20
problem with the<BR>>> Creamware stuff - they have a couple of =
different=20
names for<BR>>> every product, and it's confusing (can't help =
their=20
marketing<BR>>> efforts any, either); it's like they decided to =
rename=20
their<BR>>> entire product line, but never dropped the old names,=20
either.<BR>>><BR>>> Anyway, yes, to me this looks like the =
exact=20
same thing as what<BR>>> they now call their Mix & Master =
Pack, and=20
IMO, YMMV, etc, some<BR>>> of the FX are useful, and some of 'em =
are total=20
crap... or more<BR>>> accurately, some are useful, some are crap, =
some=20
don't seem to<BR>>> do much of anything at all and so you have to =
wonder:=20
"why<BR>>> bother even writing this plugin?". I noticed in one of=20
the<BR>>> Pulsar forum threads the other day where someone =
mentioned=20
that<BR>>> you have to get the Vinco compressor in the red before =
it=20
does<BR>>> anything. I didn't find that to be the case, but then I =
haven't<BR>>> tried it on low-level signals (and maybe they=20
were<BR>>> exaggerating a bit).<BR>>><BR>>> Also, =
Aaron, what=20
they mention on that page you liked to (down<BR>>> at the bottom =
of the=20
page) with regard to the list<BR>>> of "plugins", well some of 'em =
ain't=20
exactly plugins!. I'll<BR>>> paste that list in & run through =
it in=20
the order they mention<BR>>> the items (my comments in parenthesis =
below):<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> *MasterVerb Pro (a pretty=20
nice-sounding reverb, IMO. Not raving<BR>>> about it, necessarily, =
but it=20
sucketh not).<BR>>><BR>>> *Optimaster (this is something =
like=20
Izotope's Ozone... a Multi-<BR>>> EFX mastering app. It's got a=20
Compressor, a limiter, expander,<BR>>> all multi-band (3 bands). =
It's not=20
as versatile as Ozone, and<BR>>> doesn't have a stereo spread =
section (or=20
a reverb, but that<BR>>> would be your "MasterVerb", above), but =
it sounds=20
pretty
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76317 is a reply to message #76310] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 11:27 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
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good,<BR>>> I think - very smooth. The limiter is either =
totally=20
incapable<BR>>> of brickwaling, or I haven't figured out how to =
get it=20
there,<BR>>> because I've had to adjust the master level down to =
avoid=20
overs<BR>>> even when using this. It has a bunch of presets (not =
all of=20
the<BR>>> plugins do), some of which seem pretty useful as=20
starting<BR>>> points. I wouldn't want to run a Mastering house =
using=20
this<BR>>> application, so their choice of name may be stretching =
things=20
a<BR>>> bit, but if you want to strap something nice & smooth =
&=20
clear-<BR>>> sounding/uncolored across your Pulsar mixer's 2-buss, =
then=20
this<BR>>> would be the one to use).<BR>>><BR>>> =
*Vinco=20
Vintage Compressor (a one-trick pony dead-on (at least<BR>>> as =
far as I=20
can tell from what I've run through it so far)<BR>>> emulation of =
an 1176,=20
but cleaner - maybe a little<BR>>> less "attitude". I've never =
found the=20
'76's to be all that<BR>>> useful, personally, but for those who =
lust=20
after them, his<BR>>> one's not a bad clone at=20
all.<BR>>><BR>>> *PSY-Q (Totally fuckin' useless attempt at =
a stereo=20
spread<BR>>> modifer... as I think I pointed out before, this =
thing=20
has<BR>>> about two degress of variance before it starts chewing =
the=20
hell<BR>>> out of your signal & barfing up something almost=20
vaguely<BR>>> resembling music. A waste of code, IMO). Want a =
killer=20
stereo<BR>>> spread modifier? Get the one that comes in Ozone =
instead.=20
It's<BR>>> the only good one I've heard since the Bedini=20
B.A.S.E.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> *Surroundmixer =
STM-48s<BR>>>=20
*Production Mixer STM-2448<BR>>> *Inline Mixer =
STM-1632<BR>>> (OK,=20
absolutely NONE of these are really plugins... they're<BR>>> =
MIXERS, one=20
of which you have to have in your routing window &<BR>>> be =
able to=20
route signals through it in order to actually MIX -<BR>>> or =
sum -=20
anything!<BR>>> See, the routing window works something like =
this... you=20
drop<BR>>> in a module that represents where your signal is coming =
from,<BR>>> then you drop in a mixer module - you pick the =
smallest=20
mixer<BR>>> you really need, because the bigger the mixer, the =
more=20
DSP<BR>>> power it takes - then you drop in a module that=20
represents<BR>>> where you want your signal to go FROM the mixer, =
and in a=20
very<BR>>> small nutshell, that's it. The different modules get=20
connected<BR>>> very much like how you do it in Paris' virtual=20
patchbay.<BR>>><BR>>> The part about "where your signal is =
coming=20
from" could mean a<BR>>> hardware input (ADAT/Analog/SPDIF/AES) or =
it=20
could mean a<BR>>> software/ASIO input (like for example if you =
were=20
running<BR>>> Cubase or Nuendo or whatnot & you had a =
36-channel mix=20
going on<BR>>> & you wanted to run each channel individually =
through=20
the<BR>>> Pulsar DSP mixer, you'd drop in an "ASIO Source" module, =
do=20
a<BR>>> couple other things that I don't want to get into right=20
now,<BR>>> and connect tha module to the mixer in your routing=20
window...<BR>>> now if it's a 32-channel mix you couldn't use the =
"1632"=20
mixer<BR>>> mentioned above, because you'd be four channels short, =
so=20
you'd<BR>>> have to select the 48-channel mixer to get all those=20
channels<BR>>> individually. The part about "where you want your =
signal to=20
go<BR>>> to FROM the mixer" is similar... do you want it to go to=20
analog<BR>>> outs? Straight to somewhere on the hard disk? Back =
into=20
your<BR>>> native app on 2 new tracks so you can keep the mixes in =
the<BR>>> same project? A combination of Analog outs for=20
monitoring<BR>>> purposes, lightpipe outs to your Alesis =
Masterlink, and=20
also<BR>>> straight to the hard disk for a backup copy, all at =
once?=20
You<BR>>> can do this, too.<BR>>><BR>>> *MasterVerb =
Classic=20
(seems to me like the same basic algo's as<BR>>> the MasterVerb, =
but=20
without as much control and a different<BR>>> GUI - haven't messed =
with it=20
enough to be able to tell if it<BR>>> sounds
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76328 is a reply to message #76323] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 13:17 |
neil[1]
Messages: 164
Registered: October 2006
|
Senior Member |
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B5GRRRQBedR9kPA4yRxWfRRQB//Z
---=_linux4596b519--My card has 2 adat ports and a breakout snake (2x RCA I/O's, Spdif rca I/O,
midi in/out/thru).
AA
"Neil" <IUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:45969c70$1@linux...
>
> That comes with it for that price, or is that an extender card
> that you can buy separately?
>
> Neil
>
>
> "DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote:
>>Home card has a 2 x ADAT I/O daughterboard so add X16 ADAT I/O.
>>
>>Deej
>>
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:4595c47c$1@linux...
>>>
>>> OK, now as promised I'll continue where I left off: Clarifying
>>> their product nomenclatures & i/o options...
>>>
>>> First of all, the question I had was: "Is it Creamware, is it
>>> Scope, or is it Pulsar?" These guys have a marketing/branding
>>> nightmare going on, really. I guess I started calling it
>>> Pulsar, because two of the cards bear (or BORE) that name. No
>>> one on the Pulsar forum corrected me or was confused by this,
>>> so I guess the terms are more or less swappable. Confusing, but
>>> swappable.
>>>
>>> So you basically have three sets of choices to make:
>>>
>>> 1.) Which card you want (which basically means ONLY "how much
>>> DSP power do you want?", because all the cards interface the
>>> same way & do the same things).
>>> 2.) Which i/o options you want with the card you chose, IF you
>>> chose something besides the entry-level card? (the Project card
>>> & the Professional Card can take any of the three i/o
>>> options- I'll fill in more in this regard shortly)
>>> 3.) Which software pack do you want included with the card, IF
>>> you bought either the Project or Pro Cards? Mix & Master, or
>>> Synths & Samplers? (While there is currently a special wherein
>>> if you buy the big card you get both packs included, I don't
>>> know how long this will going on - normally this a choice
>>> between one & the other on these two cards, as I understand it.
>>>
>>> Now, going into further detail for each of the three sets of
>>> choices metioned above:
>>>
>>> 1.) Which card do you want?
>>> a.) "Home" Card? (~$450, and has 3 DSP chips)
>>> b.) "Project" Ca
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76331 is a reply to message #76311] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 13:45 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
br />
>>> FORMER names of the Home, Project, and Professional cards, in
>>> that order (think Black Paris / Blue Paris lol).
>>>
>>> 2.) Which i/o setup do you want?
>>>
>>> If you get the "Home" Card, there's only one i/o setup... it
>>> says "up to 12" i/o's but I don't know where they get that -
>>> maybe that's if you add on an extender card, but from what I
>>> can tell it's just a stereo analog i/o & a stereo digital i/o &
>>> a MIDI i/o on that card.
>>>
>>> If you get either the {Project, or the Pro card, THEN you have
>>> to choose between the following i/o options
>>>
>>> a.) "Classic i/o"
>>> b.) "Plus i/o"
>>> c.) "Z-link i/o"
>>>
>>> Here's a link that gives you details on the differences between
>>> them (scroll down to the bottom half of that page):
>>>
>>> http://www.infinitevortex.com/creamware/scope-cards/project/
>>>
>>> The i/o options are the same for the Project & Pro cards
>>>
>>> NOW... BE WARNED: the "Classic" & "Plus" i/o's can be used with
>>> hardware you (most likely) already have - it's straight-ahead
>>> analog & digiblah inzies & outsies, but the "Z-Link" has to
>>> have another piece of their hardware in order to make full use
>>> of the 28 total i/o's... the "Z-Link" i/o set is designed to
>>> work with one of THESE:
>>>
>>> http://www.infinitevortex.com/creamware/io/a16-ultra/
>>>
>>>
>>> They have more hardware like sync plates to clock externally
>>> through, and DSP booster cards with no i/o's, but those are the
>>> basic/foundation platforms & options I've listed above.
>>>
>>> To sum it all up:
>>> If you're going with just one card, my advice would be don't
>>> even fucking bother with the "Home" card - if you want to throw
>>> away 450 bucks, just send it to me and at least I'll send you a
>>> birthday & christmas card in return. In my experience with the
>>> 6-DSP Project card, the 3-DSP Home card won't do much at all
>>> for you - even at the lower sample rates... you MIGHT be able
>>> to sum a few channels & insert a couple of plugins, but that
>>> would be about the limit - ALSO, again if you're going with
>>> just one card (at least to start) the Plugins that come with
>>> the Home card are fairly scant... IOW, if you wanted the Mix &
>>> Master or Synths & Samplers pack & bought them separately along
>>> with a Home card, you'd be almost up the price of the 6-DSP
>>> Project card, which comes with your choice of either of those
>>> to begin with, plus has 3 more chips... see what I mean?
>>>
>>> Just make your first choice an educated one because like I've
>>> said, these people don't know their own product as well as they
>>> should, and also don't really stand behind it, either.
>>>
>>>
>>> Neil
>>
>>
>Two things to add. First, and I know it's not your bag so you're not that
interested, but to repeat, Scope is a superb synthesis platform as well.
Second, I really wish XTC mode worked better, even if one wanted to run stems
to sum in the Scope mixer. For me, there is the composing/tracking/humming/screwing
around stage of making music and then the mixing/tweaking stage. The ability
to use XTC mode to start, then render the Scope tracks before 'serious' mixing
would be ideal. I know it's possible now but XTC mode is so shaky I'm not
sure it's worth the bother.
TCB
"DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote:
>
>
>I previously posted.............
>
>>Either you have to work in XTC mode=20
>which negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you =
>sum=20
>in Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, or you work "in series" =
>wherein <
>
>this should read .......
>
>Either you have to work in XTC mode=20
>which negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you =
>sum=20
>in Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, so you work "in series" =
>wherein .yadda yadda.......
>
>Deej
>
>"DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote in message news:4596a69a@linux...
>> Neil,
>>=20
>> Great post. The evolution of the cards/names is definitely confusing.
=
>Now=20
>> here are some more thoughts for Parisites.
>>=20
>> Seems all proprietary DSP cards have their advantages and drawbacks. =
>Look at=20
>> the limitations of Pro Tools for instance as far as being able to run
=
>lots=20
>> of plugins. You have to buy lot$ of extra DSP hardware so in that =
>respect,=20
>> there are similarities to Scope and needing the higher DSP processor =
>counts.=20
>> It's pretty much a concensus of opinion over on the PlanetZ forum that
=
>30=20
>> DSP's (two "Pro cards") are necessary for serious mixing. The same =
>thing=20
>> with the Soundscape system.
>>=20
>> Also, before I diss the Scope platform as far as plugins go, I'm going
=
>to=20
>> need to get spend some time with the third party offerings.. As with =
>PT and=20
>> Soundscape, there are "lots" of third party plugins for this platform.
=
>I've=20
>> got the demos DL'ed but haven't tried them yet. IMHO, the stock =
>plugins for=20
>> this platform are as good or better than the stock EDS plugins that =
>came=20
>> with the Paris system with some being "much" better (have you tried =
>the=20
>> deesser?), and I'll wager that like the Skunkworks subsequent =
>offerings that=20
>> were DSP based, the third party plugs for this program may be =
>excellent=20
>> stuff..........but like Paris, and as you have already pointed out, =
>the DSP=20
>> resources are rather limited on the Home and Project cards so going =
>Pro=20
>> would be the ticket if this was going to be a large mixdown platform..
>>=20
>> I do agree with you that the implementation of this platform as =
>relates to=20
>> working in a native audio app sorta sucks, but you can look at it =
>either as=20
>> a step backw
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76334 is a reply to message #76316] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 15:26 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
; less "attitude". I've never found the '76's to be all that
>>> useful, personally, but for those who lust after them, his
>>> one's not a bad clone at all.
>>>
>>> *PSY-Q (Totally fuckin' useless attempt at a stereo spread
>>> modifer... as I think I pointed out before, this thing has
>>> about two degress of variance before it starts chewing the hell
>>> out of your signal & barfing up something almost vaguely
>>> resembling music. A waste of code, IMO). Want a killer stereo
>>> spread modifier? Get the one that comes in Ozone instead. It's
>>> the only good one I've heard since the Bedini B.A.S.E.
>>>
>>>
>>> *Surroundmixer STM-48s
>>> *Production Mixer STM-2448
>>> *Inline Mixer STM-1632
>>> (OK, absolutely NONE of these are really plugins... they're
>>> MIXERS, one of which you have to have in your routing window &
>>> be able to route signals through it in order to actually MIX -
>>> or sum - anything!
>>> See, the routing window works something like this... you drop
>>> in a module that represents where your signal is coming from,
>>> then you drop in a mixer module - you pick the smallest mixer
>>> you really need, because the bigger the mixer, the more DSP
>>> power it takes - then you drop in a module that represents
>>> where you want your signal to go FROM the mixer, and in a very
>>> small nutshell, that's it. The different modules get connected
>>> very much like how you do it in Paris' virtual patchbay.
>>>
>>> The part about "where your signal is coming from" could mean a
>>> hardware input (ADAT/Analog/SPDIF/AES) or it could mean a
>>> software/ASIO input (like for example if you were running
>>> Cubase or Nuendo or whatnot & you had a 36-channel mix going on
>>> & you wanted to run each channel individually through the
>>> Pulsar DSP mixer, you'd drop in an "ASIO Source" module, do a
>>> couple other things that I don't want to get into right now,
>>> and connect tha module to the mixer in your routing window...
>>> now if it's a 32-channel mix you couldn't use the "1632" mixer
>>> mentioned above, because you'd be four channels short, so you'd
>>> have to select the 48-channel mixer to get all those channels
>>> individually. The part about "where you want your signal to go
>>> to FROM the mixer" is similar... do you want it to go to analog
>>> outs? Straight to somewhere on the hard disk? Back into your
>>> native app on 2 new tracks so you can keep the mixes in the
>>> same project? A combination of Analog outs for monitoring
>>> purposes, lightpipe outs to your Alesis Masterlink, and also
>>> straight to the hard disk for a backup copy, all at once? You
>>> can do this, too.
>>>
>>> *MasterVerb Classic (seems to me like the same basic algo's as
>>> the MasterVerb, but without as much control and a different
>>> GUI - haven't messed with it enough to be able to tell if it
>>> sounds much different or not)
>>>
>>> *Compressor, Limiter, Gate, Expander, (plain-vanilla dynamics
>>> plugs without any form of coloration or attitude whatsover...
>>> great if that's what you want, *YAWN* if it's not.)
>>>
>>> *Parametric EQ, 4-Pole, HighCut Filter, LowCut Filter,
>>> (OK, I THOUGHT I was going to go in the order they mentioned
>>> it, but these needed to be grouped together... these are all
>>> the same basic EQ plugin, and the only reason I think they make
>>> them "separate" plugins is to give you the choice to conserve
>>> DSP if you only need one band (hi cut or lo cut, for example) -
>>> again, if there was a way to get more plain than plain
>>> vanilla... how about a soy-based vanilla? - then that would be
>>> the way to describe these plugins. Looking for a nice phat Neve-
>>> ish, phasey, smeary, analog EQ... y'aint gonna find it here,
>>> al. Phase-linear - I'm guessing - to the point of: "Is it even
>>> ON?" is the game here. Clean? Yep. Musical? Nope.
>>>
>>> *Filter, Chorus, 4-Tap, Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Delay, Dual
>>> Delay, AutoPan, AutoWah, Distortion, Dither/Shaper, Early
>>> Reflector, Harmonic Chorus/Flanger, Multitap Delay, Overdrive,
>>> Pitch Shifter, Resonator, RingModulator, Tremolo
>>>
>>> I haven't used ANY of the delays yet, but most of the
>>> modulation EFX all appear to be cut from the same mold, in the
>>> manner of the different EQ plugs - most of the mod EFX are
>>> pretty funky, and something I wouldn't use, so I can't really
>>> comment much on these. The dither has quite a few settings,
>>> some of which sound OK, and some of which sound like crap...
>>> there's about ninetymillion dither/noise-shaping algos out
>>> there now, so I'm not even sure what some of the presets
>>> represent! Anyway, to sum it all up, this batch above
>>> represents really about 4 total plugin's (Delay, Modulation,
>>> Dither, and Distortion) that happen to be broken up into a
>>> number of sub-applets for probably both convenience and
>>> conservation of DSP... can't blame 'em for that.
>>>
>>> This above3 lsit of stuff, as far as I can tell (unless I'm
>>> missing something somewhere) is identical to what you'd get if
>>> you select their Mix & Master pack as the software option
>>> if you order either the "Home" card ($450-ish with 3 DSP chips)
>>> or the "Project" card ($750-ish with 6 DSP chips)... Thad got a
>>> special they have for the "Professional" card ($1,250-ish with
>>> 14 DSP chps) wherein if you buy that card you get both the Mix
>>> & Master pack PLUS the Synths & Samplers pack (which I know
>>> nothing about since I don't have that software bundle).
>>>
>>>
>>> Argh... tired of typing now - will fill you in on the confusing
>>> differences between the names of the cards (both new AND old/yet
>>> continuing to be referenced in their own literature), and the
>>> different i/o options you have to pick from later on.
>>>
>>>
>>> Neil=20
>>=20
>>
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I previously =
>posted.............</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>>Either you have to work in XTC mode =
><BR>which
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76336 is a reply to message #76328] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 16:17 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
</DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>this should read .......</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Either you have to work in XTC mode =
><BR>which=20
>negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you sum =
><BR>in=20
>Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, <STRONG>so</STRONG> you =
>work "in=20
>series" wherein .yadda yadda.......</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Deej</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"DJ" <</FONT><A=20
>href=3D"mailto:nowayjose@dude.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2>nowayjose@dude.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
>wrote in=20
>message </FONT><A href=3D"news:4596a69a@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2>news:4596a69a@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> Neil,<BR>> =
><BR>> Great=20
>post. The evolution of the cards/names is definitely confusing. Now =
><BR>>=20
>here are some more thoughts for Parisites.<BR>> <BR>> Seems all=20
>proprietary DSP cards have their advantages and drawbacks. Look at =
><BR>> the=20
>limitations of Pro Tools for instance as far as being able to run lots =
><BR>>=20
>of plugins. You have to buy lot$ of extra DSP hardware so in that =
>respect,=20
><BR>> there are similarities to Scope and needing the higher DSP =
>processor=20
>counts. <BR>> It's pretty much a concensus of opinion over on the =
>PlanetZ=20
>forum that 30 <BR>> DSP's (two "Pro cards") are necessary for serious =
>mixing.=20
>The same thing <BR>> with the Soundscape system.<BR>> <BR>> =
>Also,=20
>before I diss the Scope platform as far as plugins go, I'm going to =
><BR>>=20
>need to get spend some time with the third party offerings.. As with PT
=
>and=20
><BR>> Soundscape, there are "lots" of third party plugins for this =
>platform.=20
>I've <BR>> got the demos DL'ed but haven't tried them yet. IMHO, the =
>stock=20
>plugins for <BR>> this platform are as good or better than the stock =
>EDS=20
>plugins that came <BR>> with the Paris system with some being "much" =
>better=20
>(have you tried the <BR>> deesser?), and I'll wager that like the =
>Skunkworks=20
>subsequent offerings that <BR>> were DSP based, the third party plugs =
>for=20
>this program may be excellent <BR>> stuff..........but like Paris, =
>and as you=20
>have already pointed out, the DSP <BR>> resources are rather limited =
>on the=20
>Home and Project cards so going Pro <BR>> would be the ticket if this =
>was=20
>going to be a large mixdown platform..<BR>> <BR>> I do agree with =
>you that=20
>the implementation of this platform as relates to <BR>> working in a =
>native=20
>audio app sorta sucks, but you can look at it either as <BR>> a step=20
>backwards or as being familiar. Either you have to work in XTC mode =
><BR>>=20
>which negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you =
>sum=20
><BR>> in Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, or you work "in =
>series"=20
>wherein <BR>> with the VST plugins are required to be first in =
>the=20
>series, similar to the <BR>> Paris native>EDS "in series" scenario =
>(the=20
>familiar).<BR>> <BR>> Another killer way to use this platform is =
>as a=20
>*real time* FX processor <BR>> interfacing with the Paris ADAT and =
>S/Pdif I/O=20
>on the Paris inserts and <BR>> auxes. The Vinco doesn't use an =
>inordinate=20
>amount of DSP and it's got two <BR>> modes. Again as you pointed out, =
>it's an=20
>1176 ringer, but it also does a <BR>> nice opto. I will be looking at =
>some of=20
>the third party plugins as well <BR>> because I have heard some =
>comparisons=20
>that were posted of the DAS EQ's and <BR>> they were damned nice. The =
>API=20
>sounded killer and the Pultec gave a good <BR>> account of itself vs =
>the=20
>UAD-1 Pultec. Using these as "real time" plugins on <BR>> Paris =
>auxes/inserts=20
>may be similar to having a "zero audible latency" UAD-1 <BR>>=20
>scenario.<BR>> <BR>> You and I had different expectations for this =
>
>platform and mine have been <BR>> met in spades. The way I use Scope =
>works=20
>wonders for my particular Paris <BR>> summing madness and it is the =
>most=20
>stable and flexible native audio platform <BR>> I've ever =
>encountered. I was=20
>going more for I/O connectivity on a stable <BR>> platform and the =
>incredible=20
>(and to me, fast & intuitive) routing options <BR>> than the =
>plugins. the=20
>plugins and synths were icing on the cake for me. I <BR>> really =
>never=20
>expected to give up my UAD cards but if the 3rd party plugins <BR>> =
>are to my=20
>liking and I get sick of mixing on three platforms, I just might.. =
><BR>> In=20
>the meantime, the stability and the routing were the major ticket IMO. =
><BR>>=20
>The routing has saved me lots of $$$ because it allows the Scope =
>platform to=20
><BR>> be used as a digital patchbay, enhancing what I already have =
>here that=20
>I was <BR>> getting ready to expand.. These two things were worth the =
>price=20
>of <BR>> admission.<BR>> <BR>> Cheers,<BR>> ;o)<BR>> =
><BR>>=20
>"Neil" <</FONT><A href=3D"mailto:OIUOIU@OIU.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2>OIUOIU@OIU.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> wrote =
>in message=20
></FONT><A href=3D"news:45952a49$1@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2>news:45952a49$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2>...<BR>>><BR>>> Yeah, this looks like the same =
>thing as their=20
>"Mix & Master<BR>>> Pack", which I also have... this is =
>another=20
>problem with the<BR>>> Creamware stuff - they have a couple of =
>different=20
>names for<BR>>> every product, and it's confusing (can't help =
>their=20
>marketing<BR>>> efforts any, either); it's like they decided to =
>rename=20
>their<BR>>> entire product line, but never dropped the old names,=20
>either.<BR>>><BR>>> Anyway, yes, to me this looks like the =
>exact=20
>same thing as what<BR>>> they now call their Mix & Master =
>Pack, and=20
>IMO, YMMV, etc, some<BR>>> of the FX are useful, and some of 'em =
>are total=20
>crap... or more<BR>>> accurately, some are useful, some are crap, =
>some=20
>don't seem to<BR>>> do much of anything at all and so you have to =
>wonder:=20
>"why<BR>>> bother even writing this plugin?". I noticed in one of=20
>the<BR>>> Pulsar forum threads the other day where someone =
>mentioned=20
>that<BR>>> you have to get the Vinco compressor in the red before =
>it=20
>does<BR>>> anything. I didn't find that to be the case, but then I =
>
>haven't<BR>>> tried it on low-level signals (and maybe they=20
>were<BR>>> exaggerating a bit).<BR>>><BR>>> Also, =
>Aaron, what=20
>they mention on that page you liked to (down<BR>>> at the bottom =
>of the=20
>page) with regard to the list<BR>>> of "plugins", well s
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76337 is a reply to message #76336] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 16:25 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
ome of 'em =
>ain't=20
>exactly plugins!. I'll<BR>>> paste that list in & run through =
>it in=20
>the order they mention<BR>>> the items (my comments in parenthesis =
>
>below):<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> *MasterVerb Pro (a pretty=20
>nice-sounding reverb, IMO. Not raving<BR>>> about it, necessarily, =
>but it=20
>sucketh not).<BR>>><BR>>> *Optimaster (this is something =
>like=20
>Izotope's Ozone... a Multi-<BR>>> EFX mastering app. It's got a=20
>Compressor, a limiter, expander,<BR>>> all multi-band (3 bands). =
>It's not=20
>as versatile as Ozone, and<BR>>> doesn't have a stereo spread =
>section (or=20
>a reverb, but that<BR>>> would be your "MasterVerb", above), but =
>it sounds=20
>pretty good,<BR>>> I think - very smooth. The limiter is either =
>totally=20
>incapable<BR>>> of brickwaling, or I haven't figured out how to =
>get it=20
>there,<BR>>> because I've had to adjust the master level down to =
>avoid=20
>overs<BR>>> even when using this. It has a bunch of presets (not =
>all of=20
>the<BR>>> plugins do), some of which seem pretty useful as=20
>starting<BR>>> points. I wouldn't want to run a Mastering house =
>using=20
>this<BR>>> application, so their choice of name may be stretching =
>things=20
>a<BR>>> bit, but if you want to strap something nice & smooth =
>&=20
>clear-<BR>>> sounding/uncolored across your Pulsar mixer's 2-buss, =
>then=20
>this<BR>>> would be the one to use).<BR>>><BR>>> =
>*Vinco=20
>Vintage Compressor (a one-trick pony dead-on (at least<BR>>> as =
>far as I=20
>can tell from what I've run through it so far)<BR>>> emulation of =
>an 1176,=20
>but cleaner - maybe a little<BR>>> less "attitude". I've never =
>found the=20
>'76's to be all that<BR>>> useful, personally, but for those who =
>lust=20
>after them, his<BR>>> one's not a bad clone at=20
>all.<BR>>><BR>>> *PSY-Q (Totally fuckin' useless attempt at =
>a stereo=20
>spread<BR>>> modifer... as I think I pointed out before, this =
>thing=20
>has<BR>>> about two degress of variance before it starts chewing =
>the=20
>hell<BR>>> out of your signal & barfing up something almost=20
>vaguely<BR>>> resembling music. A waste of code, IMO). Want a =
>killer=20
>stereo<BR>>> spread modifier? Get the one that comes in Ozone =
>instead.=20
>It's<BR>>> the only good one I've heard since the Bedini=20
>B.A.S.E.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> *Surroundmixer =
>STM-48s<BR>>>=20
>*Production Mixer STM-2448<BR>>> *Inline Mixer =
>STM-1632<BR>>> (OK,=20
>absolutely NONE of these are really plugins... they're<BR>>> =
>MIXERS, one=20
>of which you have to have in your routing window &<BR>>> be =
>able to=20
>route signals through it in order to actually MIX -<BR>>> or =
>sum -=20
>anything!<BR>>> See, the routing window works something like =
>this... you=20
>drop<BR>>> in a module that represents where your signal is coming =
>
>from,<BR>>> then you drop in a mixer module - you pick the =
>smallest=20
>mixer<BR>>> you really need, because the bigger the mixer, the =
>more=20
>DSP<BR>>> power it takes - then you drop in a module that=20
>represents<BR>>> where you want your signal to go FROM the mixer, =
>and in a=20
>very<BR>>> small nutshell, that's it. The different modules get=20
>connected<BR>>> very much like how you do it in Paris' virtual=20
>patchbay.<BR>>><BR>>> The part about "where your signal is =
>coming=20
>from" could mean a<BR>>> hardware input (ADAT/Analog/SPDIF/AES) or =
>it=20
>could mean a<BR>>> software/ASIO input (like for example if you =
>were=20
>running<BR>>> Cubase or Nuendo or whatnot & you had a =
>36-channel mix=20
>going on<BR>>> & you wanted to run each channel individually =
>through=20
>the<BR>>> Pulsar DSP mixer, you'd drop in an "ASIO Source" module, =
>do=20
>a<BR>>> couple other things that I don't want to get into right=20
>now,<BR>>> and connect tha module to the mixer in your routing=20
>window...<BR>>> now if it's a 32-channel mix you couldn't use the =
>"1632"=20
>mixer<BR>>> mentioned above, because you'd be four channels short, =
>so=20
>you'd<BR>>> have to select the 48-channel mixer to get all those=20
>channels<BR>>> individually. The part about "where you want your =
>signal to=20
>go<BR>>> to FROM the mixer" is similar... do you want it to go to=20
>analog<BR>>> outs? Straight to somewhere on the hard disk? Back =
>into=20
>your<BR>>> native app on 2 new tracks so you can keep the mixes in =
>
>the<BR>>> same project? A combination of Analog outs for=20
>monitoring<BR>>> purposes, lightpipe outs to your Alesis =
>Masterlink, and=20
>also<BR>>> straight to the hard disk for a backup copy, all at =
>once?=20
>You<BR>>> can do this, too.<BR>>><BR>>> *MasterVerb =
>Classic=20
>(seems to me like the same basic algo's as<BR>>> the MasterVerb, =
>but=20
>without as much control and a different<BR>>> GUI - haven't messed =
>with it=20
>enough to be able to tell if it<BR>>> sounds much different or=20
>not)<BR>>><BR>>> *Compressor, Limiter, Gate, Expander,=20
>(plain-vanilla dynamics<BR>>> plugs without any form of coloration =
>or=20
>attitude whatsover...<BR>>> great if that's what you want, *YAWN* =
>if it's=20
>not.)<BR>>><BR>>> *Parametric EQ, 4-Pole, HighCut Filter, =
>LowCut=20
>Filter,<BR>>> (OK, I THOUGHT I was going to go in the order they=20
>mentioned<BR>>> it, but these needed to be grouped together... =
>these are=20
>all<BR>>> the same basic EQ plugin, and the only reason I think =
>they=20
>make<BR>>> them "separate" plugins is to give you the choice to=20
>conserve<BR>>> DSP if you only need one band (hi cut or lo cut, =
>for=20
>example) -<BR>>> again, if there was a way to get more plain than=20
>plain<BR>>> vanilla... how about a soy-based vanilla? - then that =
>would=20
>be<BR>>> the way to describe these plugins. Looking for a nice =
>phat=20
>Neve-<BR>>> ish, phasey, smeary, analog EQ... y'aint gonna find it =
>
>here,<BR>>> al. Phase-linear - I'm guessing - to the point of: "Is =
>it=20
>even<BR>>> ON?" is the game here. Clean? Yep. Musical?=20
>Nope.<BR>>><BR>>> *Filter, Chorus, 4-Tap, Chorus, Flanger, =
>Phaser,=20
>Delay, Dual<BR>>> Delay, AutoPan, AutoWah, Distortion, =
>Dither/Shaper,=20
>Early<BR>>> Reflector, Harmonic Chorus/Flanger, Multitap Delay,=20
>Overdrive,<BR>>> Pitch Shifter, Resonator, RingModulator,=20
>Tremolo<BR>>><BR>>> I haven't used ANY of the delays yet, =
>but most=20
>of the<BR>>> modulation EFX all appear to be cut from the same =
>mold, in=20
>the<BR>>> manner of the different EQ plugs - most of the mod EFX=20
>are<BR>>> pretty funky, and something I wouldn't use, so I can't=20
>really<BR>>> comment much on these. The dither has quite a few=20
>settings,<BR>>> some of which sound OK, and some of which sound =
>like=20
>crap...<BR>>> there's about ninetymillion dither/noise-shaping =
>algos=20
>out<BR>>> there now, so I'm not even sure what some of the=20
>presets<BR>>> represent! Anyway, to sum it all up, this batch=20
>above<BR>>> represents really about 4 total plugin's (Delay,=20
>Modulation,<BR>>> Dither, and Distortion) that happen to be broken =
>up into=20
>a<BR>>> number of sub-applets for probably both convenience=20
>and<BR>>> conservation of DSP... can't blame 'em for=20
>that.<BR>>><BR>>> This above3 lsit of stuff, as far as I can =
>tell=20
>(unless I'm<BR>>> missing something somewhere) is identical to =
>what you'd=20
>get if<BR>>> you select their Mix & Master pack as the =
>software=20
>option<BR>>> if you order either the "Home" card ($450-ish with 3 =
>DSP=20
>chips)<BR>>> or the "Project" card ($750-ish with 6 DSP chips)... =
>Thad got=20
>a<BR>>> special they have for the "Professional" card ($1,250-ish=20
>with<BR>>> 14 DSP chps) wherein if you buy that card you get both =
>the=20
>Mix<BR>>> & Master pack PLUS the Synths & Samplers pack =
>(which I=20
>know<BR>>> nothing about since I don't have that software=20
>bundle).<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Argh... tired of typing now =
>- will=20
>fill you in on the confusing<BR>>> differences between the names =
>of the=20
>cards (both new AND old/yet<BR>>> continuing to be referenced in =
>their own=20
>literature), and the<BR>>> different i/o options you have to pick =
>from=20
>later on.<BR>>>
|
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76341 is a reply to message #76308] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 18:40 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
d .......
>>
>>Either you have to work in XTC mode=20
>>which negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you =
>>sum=20
>>in Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, so you work "in series" =
>>wherein .yadda yadda.......
>>
>>Deej
>>
>>"DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote in message news:4596a69a@linux...
>>> Neil,
>>>=20
>>> Great post. The evolution of the cards/names is definitely confusing.
> =
>>Now=20
>>> here are some more thoughts for Parisites.
>>>=20
>>> Seems all proprietary DSP cards have their advantages and drawbacks. =
>>Look at=20
>>> the limitations of Pro Tools for instance as far as being able to run
> =
>>lots=20
>>> of plugins. You have to buy lot$ of extra DSP hardware so in that =
>>respect,=20
>>> there are similarities to Scope and needing the higher DSP processor =
>>counts.=20
>>> It's pretty much a concensus of opinion over on the PlanetZ forum that
> =
>>30=20
>>> DSP's (two "Pro cards") are necessary for serious mixing. The same =
>>thing=20
>>> with the Soundscape system.
>>>=20
>>> Also, before I diss the Scope platform as far as plugins go, I'm going
> =
>>to=20
>>> need to get spend some time with the third party offerings.. As with =
>>PT and=20
>>> Soundscape, there are "lots" of third party plugins for this platform.
> =
>>I've=20
>>> got the demos DL'ed but haven't tried them yet. IMHO, the stock =
>>plugins for=20
>>> this platform are as good or better than the stock EDS plugins that =
>>came=20
>>> with the Paris system with some being "much" better (have you tried =
>>the=20
>>> deesser?), and I'll wager that like the Skunkworks subsequent =
>>offerings that=20
>>> were DSP based, the third party plugs for this program may be =
>>excellent=20
>>> stuff..........but like Paris, and as you have already pointed out, =
>>the DSP=20
>>> resources are rather limited on the Home and Project cards so going =
>>Pro=20
>>> would be the ticket if this was going to be a large mixdown platform..
>>>=20
>>> I do agree with you that the implementation of this platform as =
>>relates to=20
>>> working in a native audio app sorta sucks, but you can look at it =
>>either as=20
>>> a step backwards or as being familiar. Either you have to work in XTC
> =
>>mode=20
>>> which negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you
> =
>>sum=20
>>> in Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, or you work "in series" =
>>wherein=20
>>> with the VST plugins are required to be first in the series, similar
> =
>>to the=20
>>> Paris native>EDS "in series" scenario (the familiar).
>>>=20
>>> Another killer way to use this platform is as a *real time* FX =
>>processor=20
>>> interfacing with the Paris ADAT and S/Pdif I/O on the Paris inserts =
>>and=20
>>> auxes. The Vinco doesn't use an inordinate amount of DSP and it's got
> =
>>two=20
>>> modes. Again as you pointed out, it's an 1176 ringer, but it also does
> =
>>a=20
>>> nice opto. I will be looking at some of the third party plugins as =
>>well=20
>>> because I have heard some comparisons that were posted of the DAS EQ's
> =
>>and=20
>>> they were damned nice. The API sounded killer and the Pultec gave a =
>>good=20
>>> account of itself vs the UAD-1 Pultec. Using these as "real time" =
>>plugins on=20
>>> Paris auxes/inserts may be similar to having a "zero audible latency"
> =
>>UAD-1=20
>>> scenario.
>>>=20
>>> You and I had different expectations for this platform and mine have =
>>been=20
>>> met in spades. The way I use Scope works wonders for my particular =
>>Paris=20
>>> summing madness and it is the most stable and flexible native audio =
>>platform=20
>>> I've ever encountered. I was going more for I/O connectivity on a =
>>stable=20
>>> platform and the incredible (and to me, fast & intuitive) routing =
>>options=20
>>> than the
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant....Rant again :) [message #76348 is a reply to message #76341] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 21:59 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>>>> or sum - anything!
>>>> See, the routing window works something like this... you drop
>>>> in a module that represents where your signal is coming from,
>>>> then you drop in a mixer module - you pick the smallest mixer
>>>> you really need, because the bigger the mixer, the more DSP
>>>> power it takes - then you drop in a module that represents
>>>> where you want your signal to go FROM the mixer, and in a very
>>>> small nutshell, that's it. The different modules get connected
>>>> very much like how you do it in Paris' virtual patchbay.
>>>>
>>>> The part about "where your signal is coming from" could mean a
>>>> hardware input (ADAT/Analog/SPDIF/AES) or it could mean a
>>>> software/ASIO input (like for example if you were running
>>>> Cubase or Nuendo or whatnot & you had a 36-channel mix going on
>>>> & you wanted to run each channel individually through the
>>>> Pulsar DSP mixer, you'd drop in an "ASIO Source" module, do a
>>>> couple other things that I don't want to get into right now,
>>>> and connect tha module to the mixer in your routing window...
>>>> now if it's a 32-channel mix you couldn't use the "1632" mixer
>>>> mentioned above, because you'd be four channels short, so you'd
>>>> have to select the 48-channel mixer to get all those channels
>>>> individually. The part about "where you want your signal to go
>>>> to FROM the mixer" is similar... do you want it to go to analog
>>>> outs? Straight to somewhere on the hard disk? Back into your
>>>> native app on 2 new tracks so you can keep the mixes in the
>>>> same project? A combination of Analog outs for monitoring
>>>> purposes, lightpipe outs to your Alesis Masterlink, and also
>>>> straight to the hard disk for a backup copy, all at once? You
>>>> can do this, too.
>>>>
>>>> *MasterVerb Classic (seems to me like the same basic algo's as
>>>> the MasterVerb, but without as much control and a different
>>>> GUI - haven't messed with it enough to be able to tell if it
>>>> sounds much different or not)
>>>>
>>>> *Compressor, Limiter, Gate, Expander, (plain-vanilla dynamics
>>>> plugs without any form of coloration or attitude whatsover...
>>>> great if that's what you want, *YAWN* if it's not.)
>>>>
>>>> *Parametric EQ, 4-Pole, HighCut Filter, LowCut Filter,
>>>> (OK, I THOUGHT I was going to go in the order they mentioned
>>>> it, but these needed to be grouped together... these are all
>>>> the same basic EQ plugin, and the only reason I think they make
>>>> them "separate" plugins is to give you the choice to conserve
>>>> DSP if you only need one band (hi cut or lo cut, for example) -
>>>> again, if there was a way to get more plain than plain
>>>> vanilla... how about a soy-based vanilla? - then that would be
>>>> the way to describe these plugins. Looking for a nice phat Neve-
>>>> ish, phasey, smeary, analog EQ... y'aint gonna find it here,
>>>> al. Phase-linear - I'm guessing - to the point of: "Is it even
>>>> ON?" is the game here. Clean? Yep. Musical? Nope.
>>>>
>>>> *Filter, Chorus, 4-Tap, Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Delay, Dual
>>>> Delay, AutoPan, AutoWah, Distortion, Dither/Shaper, Early
>>>> Reflector, Harmonic Chorus/Flanger, Multitap Delay, Overdrive,
>>>> Pitch Shifter, Resonator, RingModulator, Tremolo
>>>>
>>>> I haven't used ANY of the delays yet, but most of the
>>>> modulation EFX all appear to be cut from the same mold, in the
>>>> manner of the different EQ plugs - most of the mod EFX are
>>>> pretty funky, and something I wouldn't use, so I can't really
>>>> comment much on these. The dither has quite a few settings,
>>>> some of which sound OK, and some of which sound like crap...
>>>> there's about ninetymillion dither/noise-shaping algos out
>>>> there now, so I'm not even sure what some of the presets
>>>> represent! Anyway, to sum it all up, this batch above
>>>> represents really about 4 total plugin's (Delay, Modulation,
>>>> Dither, and Distortion) that happen to be broken up into a
>>>> number of sub-applets for probably both convenience and
>>>> conservation of DSP... can't blame 'em for that.
>>>>
>>>> This above3 lsit of stuff, as far as I can tell (unless I'm
>>>> missing something somewhere) is identical to what you'd get if
>>>> you select their Mix & Master pack as the software option
>>>> if you order either the "Home" card ($450-ish with 3 DSP chips)
>>>> or the "Project" card ($750-ish with 6 DSP chips)... Thad got a
>>>> special they have for the "Professional" card ($1,250-ish with
>>>> 14 DSP chps) wherein if you buy that card you get both the Mix
>>>> & Master pack PLUS the Synths & Samplers pack (which I know
>>>> nothing about since I don't have that software bundle).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Argh... tired of typing now - will fill you in on the confusing
>>>> differences between the names of the cards (both new AND old/yet
>>>> continuing to be referenced in their own literature), and the
>>>> different i/o options you have to pick from later on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Neil=20
>>>=20
>>>
>>
>><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>><HTML><HEAD>
>><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=3DGENERATOR>
>><STYLE></STYLE>
>></HEAD>
>><BODY>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I previously =
>>posted.............</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>>Either
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76349 is a reply to message #76334] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 22:07 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
you have to work in XTC mode =
>><BR>which=20
>>negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you sum =
>><BR>in=20
>>Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, or you work "in series" wherein
> =
>>
>><</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>this should read .......</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Either you have to work in XTC mode =
>><BR>which=20
>>negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you sum =
>><BR>in=20
>>Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, <STRONG>so</STRONG> you =
>>work "in=20
>>series" wherein .yadda yadda.......</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Deej</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"DJ" <</FONT><A=20
>>href=3D"mailto:nowayjose@dude.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>>size=3D2>nowayjose@dude.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
>>wrote in=20
>>message </FONT><A href=3D"news:4596a69a@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>>size=3D2>news:4596a69a@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
>>size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> Neil,<BR>> =
>><BR>> Great=20
>>post. The evolution of the cards/names is definitely confusing. Now =
>><BR>>=20
>>here are some more thoughts for Parisites.<BR>> <BR>> Seems all=20
>>proprietary DSP cards have their advantages and drawbacks. Look at =
>><BR>> the=20
>>limitations of Pro Tools for instance as far as being able to run lots =
>><BR>>=20
>>of plugins. You have to buy lot$ of extra DSP hardware so in that =
>>respect,=20
>><BR>> there are similarities to Scope and needing the higher DSP =
>>processor=20
>>counts. <BR>> It's pretty much a concensus of opinion over on the =
>>PlanetZ=20
>>forum that 30 <BR>> DSP's (two "Pro cards") are necessary for serious =
>>mixing.=20
>>The same thing <BR>> with the Soundscape system.<BR>> <BR>> =
>>Also,=20
>>before I diss the Scope platform as far as plugins go, I'm going to =
>><BR>>=20
>>need to get spend some time with the third party offerings.. As with PT
> =
>>and=20
>><BR>> Soundscape, there are "lots" of third party plugins for this =
>>platform.=20
>>I've <BR>> got the demos DL'ed but haven't tried them yet. IMHO, the =
>>stock=20
>>plugins for <BR>> this platform are as good or better than the stock =
>>EDS=20
>>plugins that came <BR>> with the Paris system with some being "much" =
>>better=20
>>(have you tried the <BR>> deesser?), and I'll wager that like the =
>>Skunkworks=20
>>subsequent offerings that <BR>> were DSP based, the third party plugs =
>>for=20
>>this program may be excellent <BR>> stuff..........but like Paris, =
>>and as you=20
>>have already pointed out, the DSP <BR>> resources are rather limited =
>>on the=20
>>Home and Project cards so going Pro <BR>> would be the ticket if this =
>>was=20
>>going to be a large mixdown platform..<BR>> <BR>> I do agree with =
>>you that=20
>>the implementation of this platform as relates to <BR>> working in a =
>>native=20
>>audio app sorta sucks, but you can look at it either as <BR>> a step=20
>>backwards or as being familiar. Either you have to work in XTC mode =
>><BR>>=20
>>which negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you =
>>sum=20
>><BR>> in Pulsar and apply the Scope plugns there, or you work "in =
>>series"=20
>>wherein <BR>> with the VST plugins are required to be first in =
>>the=20
>>series, similar to the <BR>> Paris native>EDS "in series" scenario =
>>(the=20
>>familiar).<BR>> <BR>> Another killer way to use this platform is =
>>as a=20
>>*real time* FX processor <BR>> interfacing with the Paris ADAT and =
>>S/Pdif I/O=20
>>on the Paris inserts and <BR>> auxes. The Vinco doesn't use an =
>>inordinate=20
>>amount of DSP and it's got two <BR>> modes. Again as you pointed out, =
>>it's an=20
>>1176 ringer, but it also does a <BR>> nice opto. I will be looking at =
>>some of=20
>>the third party plugins as well <BR>> because I have heard some =
>>comparisons=20
>>that were posted of the DAS EQ's and <BR>> they were damned nice. The =
>>API=20
>>sounded killer and the Pultec gave a good <BR>> account of itself vs =
>>the=20
>>UAD-1 Pultec. Using these as "real time" plugins on <BR>> Paris =
>>auxes/inserts=20
>>may be similar to having a "zero audible latency" UAD-1 <BR>>=20
>>scenario.<BR>> <BR>> You and I had different expectations for this =
>>
>>platform and mine have been <BR>> met in spades. The way I use Scope =
>>works=20
>>wonders for my particular Paris <BR>> summing madness and it is the =
>>most=20
>>stable and flexible native audio platform <BR>> I've ever =
>>encountered. I was=20
>>going more for I/O connectivity on a stable <BR>> platform and the =
>>incredible=20
>>(and to me, fast & intuitive) routing options <BR>> than the =
>>plugins. the=20
>>plugins and synths were icing on the cake for me. I <BR>> really =
>>never=20
>>expected to give up my UAD cards but if the 3rd party plugins <BR>> =
>>are to my=20
>>liking and I get sick of mixing on three platforms, I just might.. =
>><BR>> In=20
>>the meantime, the stability and the routing were the major ticket IMO. =
>><BR>>=20
>>The routing has saved me lots of $$$ because it allows the Scope =
>>platform to=20
>><BR>> be used as a digital patchbay, enhancing what I already have =
>>here that=20
>>I was <BR>> getting ready to expand.. These two things were worth the =
>>price=20
>>of <BR>> admission.<BR>> <BR>> Cheers,<BR>> ;o)<BR>> =
>><BR>>=20
>>"Neil" <</FONT><A href=3D"mailto:OIUOIU@OIU.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>>size=3D2>OIUOIU@OIU.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> wrote =
>>in message=20
>></FONT><A href=3D"news:45952a49$1@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>>size=3D2>news:45952a49$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
>>size=3D2>...<BR>>><BR>>> Yeah, this looks like the same =
>>thing as their=20
>>"Mix & Master<BR>>> Pack", which I also have... this is =
>>another=20
>>problem with the<BR>>> Creamware stuff - they have a couple of =
>>different=20
>>names for<BR>>> every product, and it's confusing (can't help =
>>their=20
>>marketing<BR>>> efforts any, either); it's like they decided to =
>>rename=20
>>their<BR>>> entire product line, but never dropped the old names,=20
>>either.<BR>>><
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant....Rant again :) [message #76352 is a reply to message #76348] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 21:34 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
lt;BR>>> one's not a bad clone at=20
>>all.<BR>>><BR>>> *PSY-Q (Totally fuckin' useless attempt at =
>>a stereo=20
>>spread<BR>>> modifer... as I think I pointed out before, this =
>>thing=20
>>has<BR>>> about two degress of variance before it starts chewing =
>>the=20
>>hell<BR>>> out of your signal & barfing up something almost=20
>>vaguely<BR>>> resembling music. A waste of code, IMO). Want a =
>>killer=20
>>stereo<BR>>> spread modifier? Get the one that comes in Ozone =
>>instead.=20
>>It's<BR>>> the only good one I've heard since the Bedini=20
>>B.A.S.E.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> *Surroundmixer =
>>STM-48s<BR>>>=20
>>*Production Mixer STM-2448<BR>>> *Inline Mixer =
>>STM-1632<BR>>> (OK,=20
>>absolutely NONE of these are really plugins... they're<BR>>> =
>>MIXERS, one=20
>>of which you have to have in your routing window &<BR>>> be =
>>able to=20
>>route signals through it in order to actually MIX -<BR>>> or =
>>sum -=20
>>anything!<BR>>> See, the routing window works something like =
>>this... you=20
>>drop<BR>>> in a module that represents where your signal is coming =
>>
>>from,<BR>>> then you drop in a mixer module - you pick the =
>>smallest=20
>>mixer<BR>>> you really need, because the bigger the mixer, the =
>>more=20
>>DSP<BR>>> power it takes - then you drop in a module that=20
>>represents<BR>>> where you want your signal to go FROM the mixer, =
>>and in a=20
>>very<BR>>> small nutshell, that's it. The different modules get=20
>>connected<BR>>> very much like how you do it in Paris' virtual=20
>>patchbay.<BR>>><BR>>> The part about "where your signal is =
>>coming=20
>>from" could mean a<BR>>> hardware input (ADAT/Analog/SPDIF/AES) or =
>>it=20
>>could mean a<BR>>> software/ASIO input (like for example if you =
>>were=20
>>running<BR>>> Cubase or Nuendo or whatnot & you had a =
>>36-channel mix=20
>>going on<BR>>> & you wanted to run each channel individually =
>>through=20
>>the<BR>>> Pulsar DSP mixer, you'd drop in an "ASIO Source" module, =
>>do=20
>>a<BR>>> couple other things that I don't want to get into right=20
>>now,<BR>>> and connect tha module to the mixer in your routing=20
>>window...<BR>>> now if it's a 32-channel mix you couldn't use the =
>>"1632"=20
>>mixer<BR>>> mentioned above, because you'd be four channels short, =
>>so=20
>>you'd<BR>>> have to select the 48-channel mixer to get all those=20
>>channels<BR>>> individually. The part about "where you want your =
>>signal to=20
>>go<BR>>> to FROM the mixer" is similar... do you want it to go to=20
>>analog<BR>>> outs? Straight to somewhere on the hard disk? Back =
>>into=20
>>your<BR>>> native app on 2 new tracks so you can keep the mixes in =
>>
>>the<BR>>> same project? A combination of Analog outs for=20
>>monitoring<BR>>> purposes, lightpipe outs to your Alesis =
>>Masterlink, and=20
>>also<BR>>> straight to the hard disk for a backup copy, all at =
>>once?=20
>>You<BR>>> can do this, too.<BR>>><BR>>> *MasterVerb =
>>Classic=20
>>(seems to me like the same basic algo's as<BR>>> the MasterVerb, =
>>but=20
>>without as much control and a different<BR>>> GUI - haven't messed =
>>with it=20
>>enough to be able to tell if it<BR>>> sounds much different or=20
>>not)<BR>>><BR>>> *Compressor, Limiter, Gate, Expander,=20
>>(plain-vanilla dynamics<BR>>> plugs without any form of coloration =
>>or=20
>>attitude whatsover...<BR>>> great if that's what you want, *YAWN* =
>>if it's=20
>>not.)<BR>>><BR>>> *Parametric EQ, 4-Pole, HighCut Filter, =
>>LowCut=20
>>Filter,<BR>>> (OK, I THOUGHT I was going to go in the order they=20
>>mentioned<BR>>> it, but these needed to be grouped together... =
>>these are=20
>>all<BR>>> the same basic EQ plugin, and the only reason I think =
>>they=20
>>make<BR>>> them "separate" plugins is to give you the choice to=20
>>conserve<BR>>> DSP if you only need one band (hi cut or lo cut, =
>>for=20
>>example) -<BR>>> again, if there was a way to get more plain than=20
>>plain<BR>>> vanilla... how about a soy-based vanilla? - then that =
>>would=20
>>be<BR>>> the way to describe these plugins. Looking for a nice =
>>phat=20
>>Neve-<BR>>> ish, phasey, smeary, analog EQ... y'aint gonna find it =
>>
>>here,<BR>>> al. Phase-linear - I'm guessing - to the point of: "Is =
>>it=20
>>even<BR>>> ON?" is the game here. Clean? Yep. Musical?=20
>>Nope.<BR>>><BR>>> *Filter, Chorus, 4-Tap, Chorus, Flanger, =
>>Phaser,=20
>>Delay, Dual<BR>>> Delay, AutoPan, AutoWah, Distortion, =
>>Dither/Shaper,=20
>>Early<BR>>> Reflector, Harmonic Chorus/Flanger, Multitap Delay,=20
>>Overdrive,<BR>>> Pitch Shifter, Resonator, RingModulator,=20
>>Tremolo<BR>>><BR>>> I haven't used ANY of the delays yet, =
>>but most=20
>>of the<BR>>> modulation EFX all appear to be cut from the same =
>>mold, in=20
>>the<BR>>> manner of the different EQ plugs - most of the mod EFX=20
>>are<BR>>> pretty funky, and something I wouldn't use, so I can't=20
>>really<BR>>> comment much on these. The dither has quite a few=20
>>settings,<BR>>> some of which sound OK, and some of which sound =
>>like=20
>>crap...<BR>>> there's about ninetymillion dither/noise-shaping =
>>algos=20
>>out<BR>>> there now, so I'm not even sure what some of the=20
>>presets<BR>>> represent! Anyway, to sum it all up, this batch=20
>>above<BR>>> represents really about 4 total plugin's (Delay,=20
>>Modulation,<BR>>> Dither, and Distortion) that happen to be broken =
>>up into=20
>>a<BR>>> number of sub-applets for probably both convenience=20
>>and<BR>>> conservation of DSP... can't blame 'em for=20
>>that.<BR>>><BR>>> This above3 lsit of stuff, as far as I can =
>>tell=20
>>(unless I'm<BR>>> missing something somewhere) is identical to =
>>what you'd=20
>>get if<BR>>> you select their Mix & Master pack as the =
>>software=20
>>option<BR>>> if you order either the "Home" card ($450-ish with 3 =
>>DSP=20
>>chips)<BR>>> or the "Project" card ($750-ish with 6 DSP chips)... =
>>Thad got=20
>>a<BR>>> special they have for the "Professional" card ($1,250-ish=20
>>with<BR>>> 14 DSP chps) wherein if you buy that card you get both =
>>the=20
>>Mix<BR>>> & Master pack PLUS the Synths & Samplers pack =
>>(which I=20
>>know<BR>>> nothing about since I don't have that software=20
>>bundle).<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Argh... tired of typing now =
>>- will=20
>>fill you in on the confusing<BR>>> differences between the names =
>>of the=20
>>cards (both new AND old/yet<BR>>> continuing to be referenced in =
>>their own=20
>>literature), and the<BR>>> different i/o options you have to pick =
>>from=20
>>later on.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Neil <BR>>=20
>><BR>></FONT></BODY></HTML>
>>
>>
>I've been sitting here mapping out my future tracking and mixdown platform.
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| Re: Liquide Mix for PC...Long Rant.. [message #76357 is a reply to message #76349] |
Wed, 22 November 2006 23:52 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
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/>
>>>> you have to get the Vinco compressor in the red before it does
>>>> anything. I didn't find that to be the case, but then I haven't
>>>> tried it on low-level signals (and maybe they were
>>>> exaggerating a bit).
>>>>
>>>> Also, Aaron, what they mention on that page you liked to (down
>>>> at the bottom of the page) with regard to the list
>>>> of "plugins", well some of 'em ain't exactly plugins!. I'll
>>>> paste that list in & run through it in the order they mention
>>>> the items (my comments in parenthesis below):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *MasterVerb Pro (a pretty nice-sounding reverb, IMO. Not raving
>>>> about it, necessarily, but it sucketh not).
>>>>
>>>> *Optimaster (this is something like Izotope's Ozone... a Multi-
>>>> EFX mastering app. It's got a Compressor, a limiter, expander,
>>>> all multi-band (3 bands). It's not as versatile as Ozone, and
>>>> doesn't have a stereo spread section (or a reverb, but that
>>>> would be your "MasterVerb", above), but it sounds pretty good,
>>>> I think - very smooth. The limiter is either totally incapable
>>>> of brickwaling, or I haven't figured out how to get it there,
>>>> because I've had to adjust the master level down to avoid overs
>>>> even when using this. It has a bunch of presets (not all of the
>>>> plugins do), some of which seem pretty useful as starting
>>>> points. I wouldn't want to run a Mastering house using this
>>>> application, so their choice of name may be stretching things a
>>>> bit, but if you want to strap something nice & smooth & clear-
>>>> sounding/uncolored across your Pulsar mixer's 2-buss, then this
>>>> would be the one to use).
>>>>
>>>> *Vinco Vintage Compressor (a one-trick pony dead-on (at least
>>>> as far as I can tell from what I've run through it so far)
>>>> emulation of an 1176, but cleaner - maybe a little
>>>> less "attitude". I've never found the '76's to be all that
>>>> useful, personally, but for those who lust after them, his
>>>> one's not a bad clone at all.
>>>>
>>>> *PSY-Q (Totally fuckin' useless attempt at a stereo spread
>>>> modifer... as I think I pointed out before, this thing has
>>>> about two degress of variance before it starts chewing the hell
>>>> out of your signal & barfing up something almost vaguely
>>>> resembling music. A waste of code, IMO). Want a killer stereo
>>>> spread modifier? Get the one that comes in Ozone instead. It's
>>>> the only good one I've heard since the Bedini B.A.S.E.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Surroundmixer STM-48s
>>>> *Production Mixer STM-2448
>>>> *Inline Mixer STM-1632
>>>> (OK, absolutely NONE of these are really plugins... they're
>>>> MIXERS, one of which you have to have in your routing window &
>>>> be able to route signals through it in order to actually MIX -
>>>> or sum - anything!
>>>> See, the routing window works something like this... you drop
>>>> in a module that represents where your signal is coming from,
>>>> then you drop in a mixer module - you pick the smallest mixer
>>>> you really need, because the bigger the mixer, the more DSP
>>>> power it takes - then you drop in a module that represents
>>>> where you want your signal to go FROM the mixer, and in a very
>>>> small nutshell, that's it. The different modules get connected
>>>> very much like how you do it in Paris' virtual patchbay.
>>>>
>>>> The part about "where your signal is coming from" could mean a
>>>> hardware input (ADAT/Analog/SPDIF/AES) or it could mean a
>>>> software/ASIO input (like for example if you were running
>>>> Cubase or Nuendo or whatnot & you had a 36-channel mix going on
>>>> & you wanted to run each channel individually through the
>>>> Pulsar DSP mixer, you'd drop in an "ASIO Source" module, do a
>>>> couple other things that I don't want to get into right now,
>>>> and connect tha module to the mixer in your routing window...
>>>> now if it's a 32-channel mix you couldn't use the "1632" mixer
>>>> mentioned above, because you'd be four channels short, so you'd
>>>> have to select the 48-channel mixer to get all those channels
>>>> individually. The part about "where you want your signal to go
>>>> to FROM the mixer" is similar... do you want it to go to analog
>>>> outs? Straight to somewhere on the hard disk? Back into your
>>>> native app on 2 new tracks so you can keep the mixes in the
>>>> same project? A combination of Analog outs for monitoring
>>>> purposes, lightpipe outs to your Alesis Masterlink, and also
>>>> straight to the hard disk for a backup copy, all at once? You
>>>> can do this, too.
>>>>
>>>> *MasterVerb Classic (seems to me like the same basic algo's as
>>>> the MasterVerb, but without as much control and a different
>>>> GUI - haven't messed with it enough to be able to tell if it
>>>> sounds much different or not)
>>>>
>>>> *Compressor, Limiter, Gate, Expander, (plain-vanilla dynamics
>>>> plugs without any form of coloration or attitude whatsover...
>>>> great if that's what you want, *YAWN* if it's not.)
>>>>
>>>> *Parametric EQ, 4-Pole, HighCut Filter, LowCut Filter,
>>>> (OK, I THOUGHT I was going to go in the order they mentioned
>>>> it, but these needed to be grouped together... these are all
>>>> the same basic EQ plugin, and the only reason I think they make
>>>> them "separate" plugins is to give you the choice to conserve
>>>> DSP if you only need one band (hi cut or lo cut, for example) -
>>>> again, if there was a way to get more plain than plain
>>>> vanilla... how about a soy-based vanilla? - then that would be
>>>> the way to describe these plugins. Looking for a nice phat Neve-
>>>> ish, phasey, smeary, analog EQ... y'aint gonna find it here,
>>>> al. Phase-linear - I'm guessing - to the point of: "Is it even
>>>> ON?" is the game here. Clean? Yep. Musical? Nope.
>>>>
>>>> *Filter, Chorus, 4-Tap, Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Delay, Dual
>>>> Delay, AutoPan, AutoWah, Distortion, Dither/Shaper, Early
>>>> Reflector, Harmonic Chorus/Flanger, Multitap Delay, Overdrive,
>>>> Pitch Shifter, Resonator, RingModulator, Tremolo
>>>>
>>>> I haven't used ANY of the delays yet, but most of the
>>>> modulation EFX all appear to be cut from the same mold, in the
>>>> manner of the different EQ plugs - most of the mod EFX are
>>>> pretty funky, and something I wouldn't use, so I can't really
>>>> comment much on these. The dither has quite a few settings,
>>>> some of which sound OK, and some of which sound like crap...
>>>> there's about ninetymillion dither/noise-shaping algos out
>>>> there now, so I'm not even sure what some of the presets
>>>> represent! Anyway, to sum it all up, this batch above
>>>> represents really about 4 total plugin's (Delay, Modulation,
>>>> Dither, and Distortion) that happen to be broken up into a
>>>> number of sub-applets for probably both convenience and
>>>> conservation of DSP... can't blame 'em for that.
>>>>
>>>> This above3 lsit of stuff, as far as I can tell (unless I'm
>>>> missing something somewhere) is identical to what you'd get if
>>>> you select their Mix & Master pack as the software option
>>>> if you order either the "Home" card ($450-ish with 3 DSP chips)
>>>> or the "Project" card ($750-ish with 6 DSP chips)... Thad got a
>>>> special they have for the "Professional" card ($1,250-ish with
>>>> 14 DSP chps) wherein if you buy that card you get both the Mix
>>>> & Master pack PLUS the Synths & Samplers pack (which I know
>>>> nothing about since I don't have that software bundle).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Argh... tired of typing now - will fill you in on the confusing
>>>> differences between the names of the cards (both new AND old/yet
>>>> continuing to be referenced in their own literature), and the
>>>> different i/o options you have to pick from later on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Neil=20
>>>=20
>>>
>>
>><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>><HTML><HEAD>
>><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=3DGENERATOR>
>><STYLE></STYLE>
>></HEAD>
>><BODY>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I previously =
>>posted.............</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>>Either you have to work in XTC mode =
>><BR>which=20
>>negates the ability to sum in Pulsar (the step backwards) or you sum =
>><BR>in=20
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